Wednesday, June 21, 2006

"If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle" -Sun Tzu

My post about Hillary Clinton raised many questions about the future of the Democratic Party, and it’s possible 2008 presidential candidate choice.

Lamtemp writes: “… His (Bush) divisive right wing rhetoric mobilized conservative Christians who usually don't vote to get up and go to the polls. He energized his base. That is what we need.”

I disagree. Conservative Christians do historically vote. The Christian group that Bush was successful with was indeed a swing group. That swing group was the Latin and moderate Catholics.

From 2000 to 2004 he increased his share of the Latino vote by 11 percent. In the 2004 election, George Bush was also able to break the record as the Republican presidential candidate to receive the most Latino votes ever. He broke Regan’s record of 37% by eight percentage points.

He did this in part by bringing up the issue of gay marriage. He used “sin” to talk to undecided Latino voters. Essentially, Bush was able to steal away these possible swing voters who have historically voted Independent or Democratic.

On the subject of stealing votes:

Lametemp also wrote: “Correct me if I am wrong but Bush was re-elected, right?”

I have honestly not done enough study to tell you accurately whether Bush was or was not fairly re-elected. However, Robert Kennedy Jr. has been busy looking at just that issue and has put his research together in a four-page article.

I would really suggest that you all take the time to read this very well written article. It appeared a short time ago in Rolling Stone magazine. It got very little public attention, and I think that is a real tragedy.

For those of you too busy to wade through a four-page piece, here is Kennedy on MSNBC in an exchange with Tucker “Dingleberry” Carlson.

The most telling section of this clip is in the last 60 seconds.


Blogger Dreamlover said...

Republicans are counting on the Latin vote. When Bush came to Orlando last month to talk about social security he went to the Puerto Rican Society building!

Plus, they love the fact that Jeb is married to a hispanic lady, i'm sure he will run in the election after next.

9:04 AM  
Blogger dorothy said...

Funny i just read an article about jeb and his chances of making the election.

the general idea was not, as his connection to the bush dynasty has become more of a black mark against him than was previously thought. even if he did only run in the election following the next.

that and the susposition that americans are wary of political dynasties.

the journo suggested that all the dems had to do to swing the vote in their favour was to catch all three bushes in the same kodak moment.

10:53 AM  
Blogger Lametemp said...

Wow -- way to put me on the spot there, Peter. I feel like we are getting lost in the details.

All I am really asking you is this:
Do you think that Democrats would fare better if they stuck to their issues -- healthcare, labor rights, education, the environment, human rights, etc. as opposed to trying to straddle the fence?

We should not pick a candidate based on what the right thinks as you implied in your Hilary post. (The right is going to hate any candidate our party nominates.)

Since you like to argue the details -- As a Puerto Rican with born-again Christian and 7th-day Adventist Aunts and Uncles, I included the latinos in that "christian conservative" group that I was referring to. I didn't know that being Latino kept you out of other categories. I did not mean to imply that all conservative christians did not historically vote. (I was unclear in my original response -- my fault.) I should have said that "MORE" conservative christians voted. I noticed that my conservative and born again family members voted for the first time in a really long time when Bush was on the ballot. The reason -their ministers told them to.

I think we are essentially saying the same thing here -- you are saying that Bush used republican issues like gay marriage and abortion to get people to vote for him. I think the democratic candidate should push "liberal" and "democratic" issues to get votes. They should not try to seem more moderate or conservative than they really are -- it comes off as insincere and they get accused of things like "flip-flopping".

I use the term "re-elected" loosely when it comes to Bush. I flew down to Tampa, Florida (since I am still registered there -- voter fraud anyone?) to vote for Kerry on one of those "ATM" voting machines. No paper trail, no record. Good thing I reviewed my final ballot at the end -- apparently the machine thought I voted for Bush. No way. I changed it -- but who knows how many other people didn't catch that.

11:32 AM  
Blogger Lametemp said...

My final tirade -- I promise. (This is not directed at you, Peter.) I am a Latin American studies/ International Affairs person by profession and could go on and on about this, but I will TRY to control myself. Latinos as the swing vote:
Lumping all Latinos in the U.S. together is not as effective as people may think. Other than Spanish -- someone from the Dominican Republic and Argentina have very little in common culturally; Immigration issues are more important to Mexican Americans than Puerto Ricans (for obvious reasons); Catholicism is losing its strong hold in certain areas of Latin America, but not in others, etc. Time of immigration, social class, education level, and religion are far better predictors of voter trends. When you look at the "Latino swing vote", perhaps a small percent is made up of people who are deciding WHO to vote for; a larger percent of that vote is people who are deciding IF they should vote (but they tend to stick to the same party when they do vote). (The article you linked to illustrates that point – the Latinos weren’t switching their party affiliation – they were showing up for the first time. If the Democrats want more Latino votes -- they will have to excite people about social issues that are important to CERTAIN Latino voters -- they will never win over the hard core pro-lifers or the anti-Castro Cubans.

11:44 AM  
Blogger Lametemp said...

Hey I was misquoted!!! I am breaking my final tirade promise.

'On the subject of stealing votes:

Lametemp also wrote: “Correct me if I am wrong but Bush was re-elected, right?”'

Umm... we weren't talking about stealing votes. That was my response to you saying that Hilary Clinton unifies the right, the way Bush unified the democrats against him. MY POINT was that the unification of the Democrats against Bush did squat. Not that he was fairly elected. I would never say that.

12:03 PM  
Blogger whipcreamy said...

i canvassed in southern califnornia and new mexico before the 2004 election. The issues I brought to the door were for peace and social justice. saw tons of viva bush stickers in those areas. what it comes down to is that anglo chiristians finally had to say okay...we like you hispanic christians (even though they dont and still think they are decesendants of Ham) and let's get together and bash fags. the anglos got what they wanted....bush. if anyone thinks that people of color have any rights in this country they are sorely mistaken. in fact, once we get the go ahead, we're gonna flush all you brown and blacks out of this country....but first it will be the fags....get it people? oh...and then it will be the women after that. i think the last survivors on earth will be men and unborn fetuses (removed from the mother's womb ofcourse before she was killed)

1:25 PM  
Blogger Peter Matthes said...

Some ministers really piss me off. Some days, I wish God would smite them and get it over with.

I remember sitting restlessly in church in the mid to late nineties, and the minister told his churchgoers to get out of the stock market. He felt it had come too far too fast. In fact, he was dead wrong. It had only begun to rise. I wonder how many of them cursed him secretly months after that sermon.

At the "Lord hear out prayer" bit I wanted to say out loud. "Lord ... we pray for people who take financial advice from their priest and moral advice from their stock broker." ... "Lord hear out ... huh?"

Ministers should stick to moral advice. When it comes to politics and finance they know DICK.

I certainly agree that Democrats should stick to their core issues. - Healthcare, labor rights, education, the environment, human rights, etc.

I wish that Kerry had created a web site where people could see how much tax they pay under the Bush plan. Just like a tax booklet. It would let you view every level of personal income and see for yourself.

I agree that we basically agree.

To answer your question ... I like Hillary ... but not as our President. I do think she unifies the Right, but I also think there are many left wing people who are not fond of her. Just look through the comments from that post. Most are from left wingers who are not so hot on her as a candidate. I am not fond of Kerry either. Gore ... Yes ... Edwards ... Yes ... Hugh Hefner ... Yes ... George Clooney ... Yes ... My Cat ... Yes. (She's a girl)

One final thing … I like when newscasters report on Latino issues. Even a southern reporter will have her twang until she gets to the word “Latino”. All of a sudden that word come out of her mouth like she was raised in PR. Then, she goes right back to her regular accent.

There are a lot of people (Mainly Republican) who are scared of the expansion of the Spanish speaking population in this country. I have received several short films that border on hate films towards Spanish speaking leaders from my right-wing family members.

I have to run. I am printing up “Viva Gore” buttons today.

4:02 PM  
Blogger Lametemp said...

Saturday Night Live did a skit awhile ago mocking the way newscasters use a Spanish accent to say Spanish words and names. They used German, Russian, French, etc. accents for certain words and names in their report. It was pretty hilarious.

4:27 PM  
Blogger dusty said...

YouTube also has Colberts interview w/Robert Kennedy on this subject.

Excellent post m'dear..thanks :)

10:29 PM  

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